The Summitless Peak: The Endless Pursuit of Mastery

This is On Coaching, a show from the Beyond High Performance podcast brought to you by the metaproformance Institute for Coaching and Novus Global. I'm Joseph Thompson, Vice President of Innovation at the Meta Performance Institute in Oncoaching. We pull back the curtain on the craft by interviewing some of the most successful and accomplished executive and transformational coaches practicing today. You'll catch coaching tips and tricks and real time learnings from some of the world's best coaches, along with a passion for this craft that we've dedicated our lives to. We talk shop, we share the unfiltered realities and explore how the best keep growing to help others go beyond High performance. Welcome back to On Coaching, where we explore the craft of coaching itself, the work, the failures, the transformations, and the future of this vocation. In this episode, Joseph King Barkley sits down with two distinguished voices shaping that future. Christian Drennan, CEO of Transform, CXO and Certified Meta Performance Coach, and Garland Hunt Jr. Novus Global Executive Coach and award winning film producer. Together they wrestle with the myth of arrival, the cost of growth, and why true coaching always demands the coach keep transforming as much as their clients. What does it take to become a world class coach? It starts with foundations, a five month intensive training program designed to elevate your coaching mastery. Whether you're an aspiring coach or a veteran seeking their next level, foundations will challenge, inspire and change your life. But taking this step is personal. Our enrollment advisors are ready to guide you with curiosity, expertise and clarity to making an empowered decision for your future. Let's find out together what you are capable of. Visit mp.instute foundations to speak with an enrollment advisor today. Garland Kristin, I'm excited to be talking with you today about the craft of coaching and consulting and serving people and transformation, particularly the two of you. Because I, I know that the three of us come from somewhat aligned backgrounds, but distinct backgrounds, so we get to contribute our own unique stories to this conversation. And I think it'll be in such a way that people listening in who also care about transformation, about serving leaders, might likely see a little bit of themselves in our stories. There is this myth when we serve people in coaching, consulting and transformation that as we are developing mastery that we at some point get to where we have arrived and now we just create clients and we serve people from a place of arrival. We are already at the mountaintop and we are now sherpa ing other people up to the mountaintop with us. Yeah. And yet I'm speaking with two coaches who continue to invest in their own transformation as they serve others. Before we get on get into why on earth you would do that, I am curious a little bit about your background. Kristen, I'd like to start with you. I would love to hear you tell us a little bit about how you got into this field in the first place. What pulled you into this? Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say my career has been a bit of boomeranging back and forth between working for companies as an employee and then working in coaching and consulting spaces. So probably about 15 years ago, maybe a little longer now, I'm starting to date myself. I was exposed to Gallup strengths, finder coaching and employee engagement. And the big thing for me, I was doing that inside of a very large international corporation. And it was like, this is something that would be so powerful for smaller businesses and individuals. We need to like find a way to bring this to more small business space because they don't have the big budgets and training teams and all of that. So that compelled me. When I left that organization. I started my own coaching practice around that methodology and got trained up and invested in certification. I think it's really important to invest in good quality licensure and certifications and those sorts of things. So went through all of that and then ended up going and working for one of my clients full time and went on a wonderful adventure there with them and got exposed to the entrepreneurial operating system and served as their integrator for almost five years. And then they went on a merger journey and I chose to not join them on that journey and then went back into fractional COO work. Just been kind of doing this boomerang back and forth. So it's funny, my clients are constantly like, why don't you come work for us? But I love having the impact. It's almost like human years to dog years when you're coaching multiple companies and individuals because you get to have this impact on so many different people and families and teams and businesses when you're operating as a coach or fractional executive of some kind. So I think that's what really drew me to it. And that's like the Cliff notes version of how I ended up here. Well, Krista, it sounds to me like it's more than a job because you've had multiple quote jobs, titles, job relationships with a company, with clients. You mentioned a little bit about what transcends the job for you. I really am curious when you think about the results or the moments, the, the data that's most exciting to you as A person. What impact do you love making in the world? It's funny that you say that, because my husband always teases me. He's like, you don't work. This is like, ministry for you. And I don't have a background in ministry, but the work that I do very much ends up feeling that way. And even the company that I run today, you know, we help companies prepare for equity events of various kinds, and we help them scale and grow toward those eventual events. Whether they're three years away or 30 years away doesn't really matter. We're doing the same type of work there. And, gosh, for me, the reason I'm so passionate about that work is because a business owner that experiences, like, freedom and joy in the work that they're doing because they've put these systems and tools in place, they go home to their families and their spouses and their friends and their communities, and they're just. They're just better because they're not carrying the weight of all of that stress of their business into those other relationships. Because we're human, and we can't help but bring those things home. Right. Despite our best efforts. And so my hope is that if we can, you know, treat the business, maybe then we can treat the human, and then the human treats the other humans better as a domino effect of some kind. So I just. I love people and leaving them better than I found them. Yeah, it's almost like, hey, let's address the challenges you're facing in the business. And that's a Trojan horse for real human transformation, which then, of course, ripples out to all of their relationships. That's beautiful. Garland, I want to ask you the same question. I know that you were already a very accomplished leader, developer, and you have your own story about how you got there, but tell me, what drew you into this work? Initially, yeah, I blame my parents for getting me into this work. My parents have been pastors my whole life, and I have watched them pour into humans since I was very, very young. And it impacted me. It impacted me in a very real way. I saw my parents journeying with couples through some of the most intense marital experiences that I. That I could imagine. I've seen them journey individuals through some of the most tough things that life could offer, bring into their world. It's just been, for me, being in those formative years of my life, watching my parents journey with people in a real way. And of course, like, the language they would use in that time was like, discipleship and mentorship or like Christian Counseling or what have you. And you know, the framework that they were using, the language that they were using for me, it didn't at that moment, it didn't actually matter much to me at that moment. What mattered to me, what landed for me was that I was seeing transformation in real time. And I got hooked. I just got hooked. And, and I made a decision very early in my life that I wanted to be a part of transformative experiences for the rest of my life. And so what ended up happening was I left home, my parents had started churches my whole life, started a church in Virginia and then North Carolina and then Georgia. And I left Georgia to pursue a career in entertainment in California. And what, what ended up happening was when I landed surprise any of us, Garland, but that's a part of your story. That's another version of this podcast that we can talk about later. That's a different conversation. Yeah, but when, but when I landed in California, I found a community in a home church here. And I did end up going into ministry for some time, which was unexpected, but I ended up doing, was a worship leader for about 17 years. And of those 17 years, I was on full time pastoral staff for about five of those years. And so what I was able to do in that time was really cut my teeth on transformational work in the way that I understood it at the time. So I got several certifications within that world, within the context of that world, and was able to walk people through really, really powerful shift in their lives. When I left that particular home church, that version of my community, I started a coaching practice just by myself. And within a year I had more clients than, than what I could, who I could serve. So I called some friends who were smarter than me and more experienced than me and, and we started to build out a coaching practice together. And before I knew it, had 28 coaches that were serving with me and, and God bless them, because, you know, I. Operationally, you know, is not my strong suit. But anyway, they stuck with me for a long time and, and we, we built something really special and brought a lot of change to a lot of people's worlds. Maybe had you hired Kristen earlier, then that might have solved some of those issues. That's what I'm saying. I didn't know Kristen yet. That's great. Well, you both use language that I certainly understand. Ministry, discipleship, coming from church starting in Garland. I also was very involved in starting churches in the Hollywood area and there are a lot of our listeners who don't come from that framework or Background, but I imagine, you know, add your own thoughts to this. But I imagine what they might be resonating with is they want to do more than let's just solve a short term problem. They love people and they want to know, gosh, are there tools that I have yet to explore or is there maybe a different way I can use the tools I currently have to not just solve a problem for somebody, but really serve a person so that their life is never the same after getting to interact with me, I know the two of you in differing ways and to different degrees, but I, I've seen that drive how you talk about the people, how you talk about your clients, how you talk about the work, the things that light you up the most are, yeah, for sure, let's solve some problems, let's make some more money, let's reduce expenses, let's keep great people instead of suffering from attention. And while we're doing that, the most important thing is who are you becoming as a person? Because that, at the end of the day, are the things that we are the most proud of in this work. So for those in our audience who may not come from a, like a ministry background or even maybe a faith background, but they care about this, is there anything you would say to potentially encourage them about that longing that they have? I think for me, trying to figure out, how do I say this? I think for me it has been quite a journey for me, even, even spiritually, I've wrestled with, you know, even my, the foundation of my faith and all those things, like I've been an active WrestleMania with it all. And something very much so remains true for me, is that when you are, when you have people's futures and their vision in the balance, like important things are at stake, and something that is, that is rang true for me through it all, is that when you're interacting with someone on that level, it is just sacred work. It is just sacred work. And for me it has always been that. And I think that it's because of the gravity that I feel in the work. I know that their vision at stake, there's futures at stake. And that means something to me. It really does. And so what would I say to people who don't have that background? I would say, one, you don't have to have that background. That's one. But it also, two, just opening the aperture of your understanding of your experience of what could be in those spaces of coaching may be resourceful, may be resourceful to you because there is something, yes, it can be a Cerebral. It can be like we call it a top down. Right. Like when you talk about things like talk therapy or even talk coaching, if you want to call it that. But just like that's top down work. But then there's also like bottom up. There's like the body, the nervous system. There's a whole lot more going on in these conversations than just like, hey, did you do the thing that you said you were going to do? Which is also so important. I'm not saying like integrity is so, so important. And there is just so much more happening than just what's happening cerebral on the cerebral level, what's happening on a soul level, what's happening on a nervous system level. I think what a lot of our audience would, would agree with is that there's so much more to life than what just shows up on a spreadsheet. And, and the things on the spreadsheet matter too. So it does to both because that's where does is going to happen. That's great. Kristen, anything you want to contribute in there? Yeah, I would say, I don't know who said it first. I would say that I've heard people like Ed Mylett say it most recently, but you're best qualified to serve the person you used to be. And so when I think about people who have this passion or heart for helping others and feel like, gosh, I have a story and my story might be one that serves someone else, or I learned some things along the way that might help someone avoid missteps or pitfalls, or I think there's something powerful there about looking within at what you have overcome. Because we've all had different things that we've overcome in our lives. And so if you're feeling compelled to help someone, you're, you're probably best suited to help the person whose life today looks like maybe what your life looked like 10, 15 years ago. And finding that as a mechanism for service, I think is a really beautiful place to start. And it's also the thing that people look at and go, well, I'm not qualified because I don't carry, you know, maybe a certain type of experience. We all have experience that enables us to support others. So I think maybe being active about seeking ways to qualify yourself rather than disqualify yourself, which is probably more of the human default position. And to that point, Kristen, we all have experience in our life that can, can edify or build up someone else. You were even talking about certifications. I absolutely agree. Get as educated as you possibly can. If you were trying to dive into this world of human development or leadership development. Oftentimes we don't realize how much we have to offer just because of our experience, just because of what we've gone through, what we've been through, we actually have authority to speak on a lot of these things and to share and to be able to hold space for people in a beautiful and powerful way. So I just really love what you just said, so thanks for letting me hop back in on that. Well, I want to talk about your own development, because when I met both of you, which was at different times, you were both. I think a lot of people would look at what you had already created and think they're accomplished. You likely didn't feel like you had arrived. But it's like, I've done a thing, I've built a thing, I've already impacted lives. And yet you decided, hey, I want to take another step. And the thing that we all share, all three of us, it's not the only way to do this, but all three of us went through a certification process, a transformational journey for six months through the Meta Performance Institute. And I'm curious when it. When you were at the threshold of considering that, what was. What was going on in your own psyche where you thought, hey, I really want to invest in a next level for myself, expanding the toolbox, expanding my network. Who. I don't know what was motivating you to do that when you were already at a place of accomplishment? So maybe paint a picture for us that helps us understand why you made the decision to keep investing in your own growth. Gosh, I. I feel like I remember that like it was yesterday, and it was almost. It was kind of like a year ago or so that I was having conversations with one of the Novus Global coaches about this. And he and I had such an incredible connection just from the beginning, probably because he was a really good coach and really good at asking great questions and getting me to open up. And I'm sure I was just, like, very generous and sharing with him in that moment, but I was at a very specific place with my business. So I had. I knew I wanted to start a new fractional firm. And the work that I had been doing with fractional COO and fractional integrator work, I knew I wanted to layer into that and include exit planning for business owners and really bring in value acceleration methodology. So I had those two pieces and I started to, as part of my certification in that realm, I get exposed consistency consistently to many scary statistics around what it's like for small to medium business owners to sell their business. And what it really boiled down to is there are. There's a 90% seller's remorse rate when you sell your business. So 90% of business owners within 12 to 18 months have seller's remorse after they sell their business. And you think, well, gosh, what do they have to complain about? Right. You end up with these people who they get through a transaction, which is no easy feat. Yeah, big fat bank account. What's your problem? Like, can't. Can't you find a way to make yourself happy? Right. Sitting there with, with whatever. But what actually happens is their identity is so wrapped up inside of that business. And so to uncouple that and help them decide what does my life hold for me in a third season, that's not the conversation that they're having with advisors and their wealth planners. I mean, good ones, sure, there's some better ones out there that are having those conversations, but everybody's trying to get the deal done. That's where everyone's incentivized to focus. And it's funny because I go into these meetings with other people like me, and I'm banging the drum on the need for a expansive, compelling vision to drive the deal. So are we actually creating the vision for what we want your life to look like in that third season for you and your family and other stakeholders in your life? And are we super clear on that? And then let's back into what kind of exit would actually best support that, what kind of tax strategy, wealth strategy, giving strategy? All of those beautiful pieces really get informed by that. And while I was doing that work to an extent, I read Beyond High Performance. And to your point, I have never felt like I've arrived anywhere. I always feel like, okay, we hit another peak on the mountain. Surely there's another one up there somewhere. And that's where the Meta Performance Institute really found me. Was looking for the next peak on the mountain. Because of my mastery level in these other areas. I could get a company through the equity transaction, the exit transaction. But what's next? And I care so deeply about people. It's not just going to be about that, that bank account balance at the end. So that is where I felt like it was almost like the third leg of the stool that I really needed to round out and take what I was doing and put it on steroids and really maximize it to create an even more powerful experience for our clients. Okay. Okay, that's helpful. Thank you. Kristen Garland. When you and I first met, I remember meeting at a. At a fundraising event, and I was like, this guy's going gangbusters. And then we talked multiple times over several months, and as we found, we were aligned. And you decided, hey, I kind of want to jump in and shore up more skills. What was it that prompted you to step into more learning and transformation for yourself? Yeah, the secret was that the company was doing quite well, especially when I met you. And I mean, we talk a lot about high performance mentality and the challenges of being a high performer. I was running like 15 hour days for the last. By the time I met you, maybe the last three years of my life. It was. I was like struggling mentally, physically. I was struggling because my high performer was running my life. Look, I love high performers, and sometimes we can operate in ways that are unsustainable. And so I knew that my lifestyle, the way that I was running my business was unsustainable for me. And so what I ended up having to do was I actually had to pause my company, like, pause operations for my company, because I just wasn't doing well, if I'm being honest. I just wasn't. I wasn't taking care of myself. I was so focused on hitting those benchmarks, hitting those metrics, scaling. I was so dead set on scaling my company and sending a rocket to the moon. But I didn't have the health or the fortitude to focus on my health in the process, so I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. So even when you met me, I was in that. Very much. So, like, on paper, the company was awesome. It was like, wow, like, look what you've built. And I was like, yeah, look what I built. But my family saw, like, how much I was struggling behind the scenes. Yeah. Well, what's interesting, though, Garland, I'd like you to expound on this is I'm sure many of our listeners are or have experienced those seasons. Kristen, I'm sure in your own way, you've experienced a season where it's like I am burning the candle at both ends and in the middle. I've shared before on this podcast that I landed myself in the hospital with adrenal shutdown because I was working 100 hour weeks trying to build a thing. And the instinct there can be. I need to peace out for three months, six months. I need to just hit pause on all of life and somehow pay the bills, but I cannot do anything. And instead, Garland, which I think is. This is very interesting to me, instead you said I'm going to go on a transformational journey. So there was. It wasn't like you went into no activity. You went into different activity. And I'm really curious what. Yeah. How did you size that up as opposed to just piecing out? Maybe you'd earned a long, long break, but you didn't do that. You went into this different experience. What was what motivated that? If I'm being fully honest, I was hoping that you guys would just, like, fix all my problems and the Institute would fix it all. You know, the firm would, like, fix all my operational problems, and it would just be. That was the magic pill I was. I was just taking. I was taking a magic pill. Jkb, that's. That's what I. That's what I came in on some level believing. I really do believe that. And when I got there, I realized that this was a very different game that this community was playing. And it was. All of a sudden, it wasn't just about the numbers, though. You know, in this culture, we create results. Absolutely. And it was so much more about who I needed to become to achieve what I was committed to. I was not psychologically, mentally, on a soul level, prepared for the level of transformation that I was going to experience in the Institute. It caught me by surprise. Yeah. In so many ways. And I saw very quickly how it started to touch every department of my life. My business, my rates, my sustainability, my marriage, my family. Like, there was nothing that was not impacted by the transformation that I was experiencing in real time. And so I think I came in believing that it'd be a fix all, magic pill type of fix all. And it was very different than what I was expecting, and it was exactly what I needed. So, jkb, can we go into the confessional for a second and I can play on what Garland said a little bit. It's just between the three of us and thousands. Yeah. No one else is going to hear this story. Right. So, Garland, this is like my, like, hashtag, me too moment here. Like, holy cow. Because I showed up and for the first weekend of, you know, our first cohort, and. Wow, I was not expecting to be like, you know, what we call under the bar and being coached and challenged so much as me. So I think I'm showing up to get another certification. Right. A little. Another notch on my vest, little bar. Like, maybe I'll get a badge to put on my email signature, my website or something. Right. And I'm there half a day into the first day. So this is like, this is the real Talk around the table. Half day into the first day, I went outside for lunch, I called my husband and I was almost in tears and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing here. Like this. We're talking about stuff that I didn't expect to talk about and this is not what I expected. And for me, being control freak business owner, doing the work that I do, I'm like, I had a picture in my head of my expectations for this investment of time and resources and travel and time away from my family and my clients. And I'm thinking it's gonna be one thing. And garland to your point, by the end of the weekend, I mean, jkb, you had me at the front of the room talking about my family and my marriage and the impact that all of this good stuff that I'm trying to build, the impact that that's actually having on my life in other ways. And am I really aligned and becoming the person who I'm truly for me, you know, divinely designed to be. And that kicked that weekend, kicked off that, you know, six month journey of incredible coaching. Not only having the opportunity to like pract and play with the tools and try them out and learn them, but then also to be under the bar and be challenged on all of these things forever changed, like, can't unsee it is absolutely how I explain that to people. Yeah. So grateful and man, what an honor to get to be in this work together. You know, one of the beautiful things of not only the six months, but, you know, many of us going on to continue to work together and create, work together, have conversations like this together, as we so often are maybe initially blind or avoiding taking a look at things that are getting in our way. And when we're in loving community that fiercely is advocating for us, they're going to be asking questions and pointing out things that if we want to, we can address. And it creates so much more life and energy and joy. And a lot of times in my experience, it catches me off guard. A story I share a lot in recent memory was we lost our home in the Eaton Canyon wildfire. This is very present for my family seven months ago at the time of this recording, eight months ago, and I was with my coach two days later and he asked me a series of questions. But one of them was, hey, if you're willing to look through this lens for just a moment, what if this is the best thing that ever happened to you and your family? How might that be true? What would you see? And I'll tell you that was not when I got into my coaching session. I wanted it to be a therapy session. Kristen. I would have had that moment like you halfway through the session calling, texting my wife, like, I don't need to be doing this. I'm right now, I'm hurting, I'm exhausted. And yet you stick with it. And you find that there's so much value that can be created when somebody cares enough to say the thing that nobody else is saying or ask a question you haven't asked yourself in a long time, if ever. And so yeah, thank you for sharing. Thanks for being in the confessional in front of lots of people. What does it take to become a world class coach? It starts with Foundations, a five month intensive training program designed to elevate your coaching mastery. Whether you're an aspiring coach or a veteran seeking their next level, Foundations will challenge, inspire and change your life. But taking this step is personal. Our enrollment advisors are ready to guide you with curiosity, expertise and clarity to make making an empowered decision for your future. Let's find out together what you are capable of. Visit mp.instute foundations to speak with an enrollment advisor today. Because I do think there is a coach, there's a consultant, there's a leadership development, there's an HR executive listening to this who cares about their own growth as much as the growth of other people in their lives. Let's speak to that person for just a second. There is likely someone listening who for quite a long time has frankly coasted on their really good ability. It's kind of working. They've got a certain set of tools that they use. They have grown to a point, but maybe it's been months, maybe even years, and they wouldn't really be able to say, you know, I've experienced a breakthrough in my own life or in my own growth. What would be the encouragement to them? Not necessarily about Meta Performance Institute, but just in general. What would we be saying to that person if they were at this dinner table with us and it's been a long time since they've experienced a breakthrough moment for themselves? What might we say to encourage them? Yeah, something that comes to mind is something that I did learn in the institute was that we can't lead our clients into places that we aren't willing to go ourselves. And so in so many ways, especially earlier on in my career, I did, I had a lot of raw talent and I became a crutch for me. I could, I could phone it in and be pretty darn good if I'M being honest and. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I'm just realizing I didn't realize until getting into a high challenge environment where people were giving courageous feedback in like fierce advocacy for my vision and for my growth, that, you know, the, the experiences that I would, I would feel stuck in for. As an example, I would feel stuck in a session with a client and I would, I would blame the client. I'm like, well, they just aren't willing to go there, so that's not my problem, you know. And, and in this environment, I realized that when I feel stuck in a, with a client, more often than not, it is a place that I feel stuck in my own life. And that it was one of those realizations that, that, that spun me. I mean, it, it was really an eye opener for me that I am no longer at least where I, where I vision to go. I can no longer stay where I'm at. Right. Like, I can no longer be okay with status quo, with phoning it in if I'm going to achieve sue what I have vision for and the level of transformation that I'm looking to experience in my own life, let alone in my client's life and the type of business that I want to build and this type of impact I want to have in the world, what I'm doing right now ain't going to cut, is no longer going to cut it in. And I, and that was a realization for me. What I would say to those individuals who might, may be experiencing some of that, whether they realize it or not, is that there is more for you. There is growth available to you. There are things, I believe there are things that we are all missing and we get to like beyond high performance. The book says we get to go goodwill hunting for those things that we may be missing. We get to go goodwill hunting for the ways that we are getting in our own way. And so my question or my invitation to them is go find it. Go on that beautiful adventure of growth to find it. Kristin, what might you say to that coach or consultant or leader? Yeah, well, in the, in a lot of the spaces that I run in, in circles, there's no shortage of opportunities for professional development. And sometimes it does come in the form of a new certification or there's a new tool or behavioral assessment or methodology or something out there, and you can go and you can take a course or you can get a certification or go to a conference or whatever it might be. So there's so many things out there, it's almost become saturated. You know, you have to say no to certain things because there's so many things that you do want to commit to. This is something so different from any of that. And that's coming from someone who has plenty of Alphabet soup behind my name and things that I've done and I love attending conferences and those are great, but this, this is very different. This is unlike anything that I've ever experienced. Because, Garland, to your point, the work begins here, inside of my ears and my heart and really being forced to look within. And it's so fun. I don't want to like spoiler alert for anyone who is going to, you know, be part of foundations, but I mean, yeah, I'm sure I couldn't possibly. But there's so many moments where you can see the light bulb go off for someone while they're being coached. And it is, it's that inward looking moment that we find the thing that we actually need, which is just beautiful evidence that, you know, your higher power, God has, has put it inside of you. You just have to go hunting for it. So, Garland, I love that and I couldn't agree more. But it's very different. This is not your traditional go get a certification on a new coaching methodology. There's nothing like this out there, in my opinion. Well, speak to that a little bit, Kristen and Garland, because I do think that there is so much value in information. I love conferences, I love books, love podcasts. I, I've learned in my top five strengths finders. So Kristen, you understand what that means? And so I, I love input. I love the data collection and it tickles a part of my brain. And I noticed that it's not necessarily growth, growth. So for those who have right now, maybe they have companies or they are coaches or consultants and they're noticing that for their own growth or for their clients growth. It's a lot of information, it's a lot of trying hard, it's a lot of putting in time. But we're not actually seeing a reinvention, we're not seeing results. What do you think is often misunderstood about real growth? Where real growth happens or how it happens? What comes to mind for you? I think one of the things I notice about many of like the conferences, certifications, even books and podcasts, you hear great stuff. But how much of it do you actually apply into your life and your business and put into action and get it to actually stick? Inch wide, mile deep. I think we do a lot of stuff inch deep, mile wide. I had one year, I think it was 2022. I challenged myself to read 50 books. Like, I'm going to read basically a book a week, and I'm going to try and read 50 books this year. And I did it, and I read some really great books. And do you know where I find myself today? Wanting to go back and reread all of those books. Because I'm like, wait a second. I read that book. I don't remember anything from it, and now I've got to go back and reread it. And now I've taken on a much more disciplined and discerning approach with consuming. It's why I have whiteboards and I have, like, note apps and all of these things. Like, I made my husband put whiteboards up all over our master bathroom. Because while I'm listening to podcasts and, like, getting ready in the morning or listening to books, I hear something and I'm like, well, that's good. I gotta write that down. And so I run over to my whiteboard, stop drying my hair, and go over and, you know, grab those little snippets that I really want to turn into something meaningful. But the work, I would say with, you know, Meta Performance Institute, you have no choice but to really let the coaching marinate inside of you. And there's, like, no escaping it, because everything about it, you do have to keep looking within and keep digging. So there's something very powerful about. I would also say the length of the program. Six months. That's not, like, go to a cool weekend and. Or, you know, two days, and you'll have a badge for your whatever. Um, there's something that forces depth and saturation with this particular approach that I think is also very powerful, so that it's not the flash in the pan. So I hear a couple things in there. Garland, I'm curious what you might add. I hear in there, Kristen, there's a difference between information and application. So that maybe instead of exposing yourself to more and more data, it's, what would you do with the data you already have or whatever's being presented in front of you? I hear in their duration, too, that 50 books in one year is different than six months with a particular set of skills. To sound like Liam Neeson for a second, but there's a certain duration there. But I also hear in their partnership, because you. There's. You can do so much on your own, you could retain a lot and frankly, probably activate a lot of ideas on your own. And there's something to be said for. There's someone with you who's inviting you. Hold on. Slow down. Pay attention to this. What would you do? Let's, let's. Let's absorb this for a moment. Let's live out of this for just a moment to see what we might find. That's. That's really helpful. Garland, anything you'd add when you think about where real growth and transformation happens? Yeah, Kristen, I think you nailed it. I even to keep the confessional thing going. So I remember first weekend, first weekend, I was just taking the information at face value and I was pretty positioned on it, if I'm being honest. Like, I've been here, done this before, guys. I know what time it is. I know how this goes. Okay? So I was just like waiting for all the beats and I'm like, cool, cool, cool, cool framework. I get it. And I was just keeping it at arm's distance because I think I was afraid of what could have come up in that moment, if I'm being perfectly honest. And so I did. I kept my distance. And then after you finish that weekend, you start your own personal coaching. You have your own coach, and you're in coaching pairs. And that is where I tried my darndest to stay hidden, and you just can't. And my coach, Shawna. Shawna Barnes, I'm still coached by her to this day. She kicked my butt. She kicked my butt and told me the truth in ways that I did not want to hear. It told me the truth in ways that challenged me. It told me the truth in ways that pissed me off. Am I allowed to say pissed? I just. She. It was the first time that I experienced that level of disruptive, ontological coaching in a way that. That. That invited me into the journey from mental ascent to application. And so I think this is something that Jason says, at least I've heard him say at least once or twice, that what separates a lot of us from the people who change the world is not because they have some new truths that other people don't know. They are taking age old truths that we all know, like in our system we know, but they are finding new and unique and more powerful ways of applying the truths that have existed for millennia. And so I'm realizing even the work that we do one on one and even in our trainings, you can keep it at arm's distance if you'd like, and you will just learn information or you can be invited into this experience and process of application and it actually can bring transformation to your life in ways that you have felt stuck in ways that you have felt Trapped in ways that you have felt like, this is all that I'm capable of. This is all that's possible in my life. All of those things get it, like, opened up and in some ways imploded in some ways through that transformative experience. And that was my experience during that time. Yeah. And what I'm gleaning from that, that's adding to this, where real growth is coming from. Garland is first something that I think is worthy of applause, and that is that you stepped into the thing that was offensive or that you were resisting. Because that's not for everyone. One that takes a certain intestinal fortitude. Or maybe we might say it takes a vision that's worth it. It takes a vision that's worth stepping into something painful or difficult or new. And growth often happens on the other side of the thing we are resisting. So for anyone listening, it's not necessarily that you need new ideas. Like, I do not need to go into the gym and see new equipment. I need to use the existing equipment. I've seen a treadmill I don't know how many times. Knowing that I what a treadmill is, is not helping me burn calories and expand lung capacity and all of it get on that sucker. And I hear in there some novelty might be actually a way to sort of avoid. Like, I'm just going to come with new ideas and I need new tricks to the new hacks to change or grow my business or, you know, change my marriage. So it's not necessarily new ideas is like, hey, pay attention to those things that you might be avoiding, resisting, or even are offended by. And what if you sit in there to find out what. What if that was just a moat protecting something that you don't have to protect, what growth might become available to you if we're courageous enough to step through the thing that we want to resist. So that's. There's some powerful stuff in there. I. I want to know, as I listen to the both of you, so much is impressive to me, and I'm curious what things you are continuing to unlearn. I've noticed patterns that have been hanging out in my life for decades. And as much as I get to be in this work and I get under the bar and I get coached, as much as I coach others, I still notice myself revisiting patterns and like, ah, there's that thing again. That's adorable about me. I'm really curious, maybe as a way of just someone else having a little me too moment. That's listening to this. What do you notice in your own life that you're willing to share in front of lots of people that you're still like, ah, you know what? I still sometimes notice myself getting in my own way with blank. And I'm so glad that there's people advocating for me in it so that it's not hanging up, hanging me up as much as it used to. Yeah, for me, it is the, it is the chronic people pleaser. I have noticed. Look, I. Part of it is a gift, if I'm being honest. I'm. I'm good at getting people to like me, and it's worked very well for me in my life. So I don't know what the problem is. No, I have. I'm realizing that there are so many ways that people pleasing for me has just been an inhibitor in different aspects of my life. I think about in my, even in my coaching practice, my ability to close clients, my ability to serve clients. If I am in the space of like me, like me, please like me, or what's going to make you happy, that. That does not create an environment where, where I'm willing to say the scary things, willing to give courageous feedback, or even when I mentioned being a fierce advocate for their vision, sometimes you have to say things they aren't going to like. Sometimes my clients are going to get mad at me. Sometimes, sometimes my clients might hang up on me. These are things. It's like my commitment to you, and this is something that I've said to my clients several times. My commitment to you is that I will be a fierce advocate for your vision. I am not going to be a fierce advocate for our friendship. So there are moments that you will experience me as, like, you know, disruptive in a way that you do not appreciate, and I'm okay with that right now. Huh? You're not being real nice to me right now. That's right. That's right. That's right. It's kind of about your, your coaching session where you were like, hey, I kind of wanted like a nice therapy session after I lost my home, you know, and, and, and instead the, the type of work that we are up to, we are calling each other higher. We are calling our clients higher. So my point is, the thing that I am continuing to unlearn is that people pleasing gets me what I want. So good. So good. Thanks, Carland. Kristin, what would you throw in there? Well, I can certainly relate to the people pleasing, so also in recovery there and perfectionism. But I think the fun thing here, ironically, I also had that Experience with my coach that I had as part of foundations. Am I allowed to say his name? He's like one of my favorite people on the planet. So Chris north was my coach. And at first I was like, okay, I wonder if this guy thinks I'm a good coachee. Like, am I doing a good job here? Right? And he had my number so fast. Like, he could just, he could see it, you know, I was trying to, like, do a good job inside of the program. And then the challenge came. And the thing that I noticed was that my relationship with being challenged at a deep level was something that I needed to explore. And when I think about most people, you know, I'm very fortunate to have a very loving family, wonderful husband who's my biggest raving fan. And it's like, he's not going to challenge me very frequently. And when we think about maybe historically, like, what has our relationship been with people who have challenged us, Maybe it's not been healthy and it's been. It's created tension in the relationship. And then here comes Chris north challenging me with inquiry and care without having to, like, woo me and earn that right with me. It was a really interesting dynamic. His ability to just, like, get right to the point, ask the tough question, and do it in a way that you could tell that there was, like, care behind it. And it was also judgment free. And most people don't have the experience of their thinking being challenged in a judgment free setting. And I would just encourage anyone who's thinking about this, what might be possible for you if you had that experience as someone who was there to truly like, who cared about you as a human and that was a parent, but could ask those tougher questions because that is where you unlock that next level of the video game within yourself by being in a. In a, like, safe space where someone's willing to do that for you. And I actually, I just chatted with him this afternoon. We were just kind of catching up on a phone call, which was really fun. So I think he did, like, he does like me, but he likes me better now because I let the perfectionism down and I let him challenge me and get real in my life. And now we have a real relationship that is such a. It's become a powerful, you know, professional friendship, which is really neat. I sincerely mean it when I say I could talk to the two of you for hours more. And we're not going to do that. Already so much value has been created. I want to thank you both for the generosity of your time. I know that there will be people who are served by this, who see their future in your present and are going to choose to do something different than create the stuck experience or create the bored experience by investing in their own disruptive growth for the sake of themselves and the world around them. So, Kristen Drennan, thank you so much. Garland Hunt Jr. Thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute blast. Thank you jkb. It was an honor. Thank you for listening to Beyond High Performance, home to On Coaching, the Meta Performance show, your finest hour and Novus Global Sport. We're taking a short break, but we hope this year's conversations were as intense, insightful and impactful for you as they were for us. We'll see you in 2026. You've been listening to On Coaching, a podcast by the Meta Performance Institute where we dissect the craft, the calling and the future of coaching at the highest levels. By listening to this episode, you're helping us build a global network of meta performing coaches who do more than help leaders succeed, they help leaders transform, starting with themselves. If today's conversation challenged you, stirred something in you, brought new energy into your world, good. You're right where you belong. To learn more or explore our certification or partner with our team, visit MP Institute and join us as we lead humanity into going beyond High Performance.