Influencer Marketing Is Broken: How Billion-Dollar Brands Can Fix It at Scale

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Marketing Architects welcome to AdSpeak AdWeek's podcast about the business of marketing, media and creativity. In this episode, we're sharing a conversation recorded live at Brand Week featuring leaders from across the industry discussing the ideas shaping brands right now. Let's get into it. So I used to work at Bayer, but now I work at a much more wonderful place and that is Lynkia. And Keith was my agency. And all of the work that you just saw, I was at Bayer and Keith was on the agency side. And we had such a symbiotic and amazing relationship that I was welcomed with open arms at Lynkia and my blessing, of course, to create some of those campaigns for more than just Bayer. It was a conscious decision to leave the company because I went in and they were spending $0 on influencer marketing, which I was like, oh, what? When I left, we were spending between 5 and 6 million and I sort of paved the path there. And that's why this is, you know, how do you get billion dollar brands to lean into influencer marketing? And I knew when I left, I said, I want to take what I did at Bayer and want to give that to many, many brands. So I didn't want to go in house at another company. I wanted to give that to others, but I couldn't do it without the right partner. And that was Keith. I'm just here at Evan and White for Denise. When we said, what do we want to do? I said, you built this as a billion dollar brand. Just talk. I'll show things on the screen. But last night I forget who it was. I'm sorry, if you're here, we Were talking, they said, well, I work at a small challenger brand. And I said this is a if you could dodge a wrench, you could dodge a ball type of scenario. Like billion dollar brands move very slow. I worked at Unilever for many years. I've worked at 100,000 plus person companies. I worked at 10 person companies. If you could make things happen at kind of the slow moving traditional companies, you could take all these and apply them much more quickly and easily at smaller companies. So I think this conversation applies to both. But we are going to focus on how do you kind of steer a very massive ship in large, large companies to do influencer the right way to invest in it correctly. Yeah. So everything has a process. Right. Because we like processes and because we need them. So we created together a proprietary process and when we were building the car and driving it at the same time, we said to ourselves, what are we doing? Like what is process? How do we get to where we want to be? And that was to spend millions of dollars on influencer marketing and bring huge success to the company that I happened to be at that time. So we are going to go through each of these stages and the first being stakeholder buy in. Keith. So I know this is not the most fun thing to talk about. Internal education is probably the most important thing to this entire process. So nobody wants to do it. If you want to rfp, they want to start work, they want to go execute work. 90% of the people at the company, large companies have no idea what influencer marketing is and they have very misconstrued. I mean Keith, is that really true? Is that true? Very true. It's very true. There's a few things to be done. I think the two most common things we do are broader education sessions at large corporations where we'll go through a half day or full day of kind of the whole suite of influence marketing, how it works, how does it ladder to other departments, what competitors are doing, how it all works. And that's more of an education session for the non social influencer teams. And then the second thing, it's called a link you look at, we call it. But these are just quarterly reviews to understand what's the competition doing. What's the category doing across social. This stuff is insanely important and everybody skips it. People do not understand what influencer social is. Broadly speaking, in broader media and broader advertising, you need to get to the basics. So we wanted to start with what seems like the most simple thing but what most people ignore. Yeah. And like bring the outside in like every time I was like, well record's doing this or like Kenmue's doing this or look at what that Mucinex little snotty guy's doing all over TikTok. I'm like, we can do it too. And starting with going and doing these $200,000 executions. $100,000 execution. I'm talking to people that weren't doing influencer marketing and they're kind of like looking at me like crazy. Doing traditional marketing. I'm non fashion Bayer at all. But I'm like, why are we still running TV ads? Let's actually just take maybe $50,000 of your budget still run on TV if you want, but let's try something else. So I tin cupped around the company. So like a lot of people that work at companies that have multi brands, I'm Tin Cupp do a scale program. So I wasn't asking people for $100,000 because that's not a rounding error but $10,000 rounding error. Nobody even cared. They're like, oh she's so cute. Give her $10,000. Let's go see what she can do. Well, blew the barn doors off of the barn and everyone. It was a holiday scale program. So we had multi brands. We had people talking about the products in a very different way. I was just sitting in a presentation earlier this morning and it's like it's that human side and we all know it. It's so, so obvious. It's like we're banging each other on the head. It's like we don't want to hear from brands. We want to hear from the humans. Did the scale program. Everybody was happy. We move on to the next where Influencer everywhere and Keith and I talk about this a lot and we talked about it a lot when I was a client of his is we almost die if you're not taking influencer content and you're just doing organic and that's it. And you're like, oh cool, you know I'm walking away from it. Yes. And don't leave the opportunity on the cutting room for oh so Matt Keith. So basically the concept of Influencer Everywhere is you take creator content and for a lot of people when the creator posts that is influencer marketing to that they've achieved influencer marketing. The creator created content. They posted for us. That is the very, very beginning of an integrated process where the content is then utilized everywhere. Now there is a very big question of how the hell do you do that and do well which we will get into. But the idea is kind of cross department. And how do you align all of these stakeholders across social media, brand and analytics? Again, this isn't the fun stuff, but it's how do you get everybody aligned to how this content's going to be used and how does senior leadership advocate for it. So if we keep going, we'll get into the actual detail. I say this all the time. Half the value comes after they post. I honestly believe that. And for creators, they are smartly getting lies to that and they will charge you for those usage rights as they should. But half the value comes after they post. But Keith, isn't it true when retail media gets to use the Influencer content and they see huge success or Walmart's happy, isn't that really like that's where you get other stakeholders to come in? It's just more measurable is the bottom line like organic is a hard thing to measure. It's a hard thing to sell up to a CMO on results. So if you could talk their language of media and how you do media efficiency and effectiveness, it's a much easier conversation. And we'll get to measurement in a second. But we'll put a QR at the end of this. We do a research report every single year. State of Influence Marketing Report. We just launched this year, three weeks ago. This was we go back one for two seconds. I don't know how to go back. This is the first time every single respondent said they were using content beyond the walls of the creator. And we had 64% saying at least half of the budgets that they allocate to Influencer as a company are for the media amplification of that content. This is no different. When I was at Unilever, every dollar we spent on content creation, if there wasn't $3 to $4 on media for that content, what were we doing? The same applies to Influencer today. But I just want to chime in because to be clear, Keith, this is a heavy lift. It was a heavy lift for me at Bayer that I had to call it Project Butterfly because all good things have project name because you were sort of sprinkling this throughout the organization. So it wasn't my department. I had to involve a few other departments and like with the help of Keith being able to prove it out. This is the Alka Seltzer example that Keith will walk you through. So this is one of my favorite visualizations because I think it tells an entire story. One thing, you have a creator post content and for A lot of marketers, that's all they can see. It's like this is a 9 by 16 video. It belongs on TikTok. That content obviously should be used on your social, organic and paid. It could be used in retail. So we do a lot of things to make it optimized for retail placements, whether that's retail media on the paid side or organically on PDP pages, that is CTV. If you want to email me, I have 20 examples of widescreen television content built entirely from 9 by 16 creator videos. That is the hardest one for marketers to get their heads around. But I promise you, you can make amazing TV content, even digital at home. I think we have a TV and an home later example will show. I think it might be the nice but it's keithinkia.com yeah, here we go. How do you feel about ordering Denny's? Ooh, I want an omelet. My friends and I are obsessed with Denny's because they have everything. Let me show you. I can sit right at home and make my orders seamlessly. I have my personalized profile and even digital wallet for purchases. Ordered it right to my door. It took like 20 minutes tops. A little bit too quick and easy, if you know what I mean. Like I'm going to be doing it all the time. Denny's new ordering app is the best. So that's called a stitch video. You take the best content, you stitch them together. So there's eight to 12 creators that would never program. They all had their own thing. They had no idea this was happening, right? They did their own thing. They each posted, they're reaching their audiences, they're telling them stories. They had multiple posts, a whole flow. This is a stitch of bringing it all together. If I was at Unilever back five years ago, 10 years ago, and I hired Widen just to do that spot, it would have cost 10 times the creator campaign and this was an afterthought. And I used this program because it was early when we were doing this post production work where they needed a ctvs where I just like, just let us do it. Just give us 48 hours. Just let us do it. You don't need to go shoot a TV spot. We have amazing content here. Just let us do it. This is sound off if you want to play it. It's just a digital out of home. So same thing, you just take a stitch, you cut it to a 6 or 15, you throw QR. You can put that on screens everywhere you want. So just don't limit Your imagination. This content that starts as this 60 second tutorial from an influencer can become 60 different AD units because you have 12 influencers with three tutorials each, all at 45 seconds. Do you know how much that is for a post production team to work with? So just open the aperture of the imagination what this content could be used for. Absolutely. So moving into measurement because everybody needs to measure back and report back to people that it's working and I hear a lot of the time well you know, it's not, we're not effectively measuring it. How do you measure it? You can measure it. You can effectively measure it. Keith has all the answers for you. This is a 60 minute talk, so I'll do this in five. So there's four pillars of core measurement in my opinion. There is social conversation, that's what you all think of. Impressions, engagements, click throughs, etc. The two things I think you're underutilizing are share voice, which is super effective on social conversation. What's your share voice versus competitors when you run influencer pre first post and then consumer sentiment. I know I've been on the brand side like I know we're all about emotive positive, negative. There's intense sentiment. You can analyze comments and say how many comments are awareness based, how many are intent based, how many like their outfit and have nothing to do with our goddamn company. Like you can segment kind of commentary to understand sentiment. That's all in the social conversation. Media effectiveness is super easy. I'm buying a ton of paid media across these channels. If I start slotting in these creator assets, what does it do to the effectiveness and efficiency of the media? That is insanely easy to do. It just requires coordination with the media buying team. If the influencer team doesn't have paid media budget and it has to go through paid media team, there's coordination there. Brand sales lift. We are constantly doing third party studies. We'll bring an outside party to come do a brand lift. There's a lot of different ways to slice this. So you can do a forced exposure braille if which we do a lot and you can customize the questions. So if it's about perception change, you can ask seven perception questions. That's different than like an ad recall study through meta or through TikTok which is just about brand recall. But these are third party studies and companies that come in and do an analysis to see results. And then please, if you're using mmm, which I know a lot of you do, there is some work to make sure influencer is a line item in an nmm. It's not rolling into social or paid. It is worth doing. It takes a little bit of time and integration is worth doing. So to me, if I'm sitting with a CMO, I don't want to say that we drove 80 million impressions. Look how wonderful we are. I want to say, hey, we drove 80 million impressions. We drove a 3.6 CTR which is twice the average. We're getting two point X lift on media effectiveness versus what we normally do on a CPA perspective. A braille study showing 8% lift points in perception and, and oh by the way, we're the highest performing ROI channel with the lowest spend rate on an mmm. Like that's a conversation I like to have versus some made up metric about like earned media value which I'm not digging on emv but like there's a lot more to life than EMV in terms of how influencers perform. But those of you that are on the brand side and you do this, you know it takes many layers and many steps to get to where Keith is talking about. Many conversations, many sit downs with additional teams, bringing in the analytics teams. And now I have clients that I am asking the brand marketers like, are you meeting with your analytics team and making sure that the influencer content that has traveled everywhere that Keith showed you is, are we actually getting credit for that content that's going to ladder back? How do we do that? That's through this MMM and ROI stock. And it just takes a very aggressive brand manager sitting with analytics to make sure that that stuff is happening. Qual metrics can be quant, so this is kind of a qual in terms of brand lift. But you could do cost per efficiency of brand lift and you can do a B test and like split cell tests. Have you ever seen in your entire career? I've not. And we were so convinced that the sort of where this came from is everyone's saying oh, but does it influence our content really perform better? Keith and I are like oh my God, of course, like do we even have to have this conversation? But data matters. So we decided like let's get some of our content and do this three cell test at the multi cell test to actually prove it out. And this is exactly what we did. And guess what, I've never seen BAU influencer content ever. But I will say I had someone at a talk a while back, she was at a creative agency say so are you saying like creative agencies don't need to exist. We don't need to do creative content. And my point was it's the BAU plus influencer. So if you think about frequency and fatigue, if you're a user and I serve you at a 7 frequency, let's say as a media, the brand asset sets the tone for what this brand is and stands for. But I don't want to serve you seven produced brand assets. I might get you first and give you a sense of what this brand is and stands for. Then I want to show you six people, humans that look like you, that act like you, who are validating the thing I just told you the brand stands for. So it's not an either or. I don't think creative is dead at the production level or traditional creative. Like it's just not the 7 frequency anymore. Like that world is over and it gets better. Yeah. So that was upper funnel. So cost per lift you can do quantum qual, then lower funnel on kind of conversion based initiatives. So this is at an ROI standpoint. So you could do conversion based. We did block the number so they're just on a par of one. So it's one and a half and two and four. So you could see ROI delivery through these things as well. Again, I've never seen be a UV influencer on this stuff, but it is the combination, that frequency that works really well. If you like marketing conversations with actual receipts, not vibes, not vanity metrics. Quick recommendation for you. I've been listening to the Marketing Architects podcast and it's one of those shows that makes you stop and think for a second. They dig into effectiveness research around topics marketers love to debate like TV advertising, measurement, AI and what happens when brand and sales goals collide. It's thoughtful little contrarian in the best way and focused on ideas you can take back to your team for smart, honest marketing conversations on crafting goals your CMO and CFO agree on. Search for the Marketing Architects wherever you're listening right now. Marketing Architects this message is brought to you by Warner Brothers Discovery Advertising. And this is more than an ad. This is an invitation to be part of the stories the world can't stop watching. To connect with moments that dominate the conversation. To participate in culture, not just advertise around it. With the most sought after ip, passionate audiences and an advanced AI powered foundation, WBD Advertising transforms attention into influence and impressions into outcomes. This is innovation. This is impact. This is opportunity. This is Warner Brothers Discovery advertising. Visit advertising wbd.com to learn more. And then how many of you NMMs? Yeah, MMMs are becoming pretty standard. So this is a kind of normal look at an mmm. Again, they're blinded, so they're all on a part of one. But if you have influencer and you usually see influencer and paid Socials 1 and 2 almost every time as a net sales ROI and a spend channel. So the whole point is you have influencer at basically the lowest other than digital display spend rate, but at one of the highest net sales ROI channel. Like everything in life, if you do something at a low rate, you could get massive efficiencies. As this bar goes up, you don't necessarily expect this to maintain, although it does a lot of times. But that bar has got to go up. Like this is ridiculous. So that's what you want to do with an mmm. You want to understand what is my channel split, how efficient is each channel and then where should I be allocating spend so really important and it takes work. How many calls with the analytics team did we have to go on just to make sure that the data and the funnel is feeding to the MMM reads so that you could actually get this as a channel split out? Yeah. And the juice is worth the squeeze. So take the time and just put in the time to invest it to make it happen. It'll prove out and the right partner Playbox. So I'm going to keep it with Keith funding for. So this is really. We did an RFP guide. I think we did this, a procurement show last year just so the procurement teams can understand how to actually RFP this stuff. So this is an RFP guide. If it's helpful for how do you RFP for influencer, ask the right questions, Number one, know how much of the stack you need the partner to do. So we talked about organic, we talked about paid media, we talked about post production, optimizing content, we talked about studies. Do you want your partner to do those things? Do you want to do them in house? Do you not want to do them at all? Like, these are decisions that have to be made. So just know how much of the stack and then clearly define your goals on the next slide. I think Beckham spoke this morning, but this is one of my favorite memes in our industry. And Denise knows every time we got on a call and she was like, Michael, you know, this brand says they're drowned of awareness. I'm like, denise, what is the brand trying to drive? What is the brand trying to drive? Like, are they really trying to drive awareness? So let's be honest about what we're trying to Do I know that sounds simple, but if any of you walked up to me and said, five second brief, here's what I'm trying to do. The talent, I would recommend the content brief for that talent. And that entire measurement structure would look completely different if you said this is about equity for the brand and upper funnel, this is about driving immediate sales. So it is an important question and you're allowed to say both. And I'm going to tell you cool. That will perform worse in equity than equity campaign and worse than sales on a sales campaign. But you'll get a full funnel benefit and we can make that decision. Like that's a fine decision and. But it's the consciousness of making these decisions. Yeah. So I saw a post this morning from Mark Pritchard, P and G CMO demigod in the marketing industry, at least I believe that I used to work on P and J and he was giving five principles of a good marketer. And his fifth principle was working with the right partners and being a partner to them and working creatively with them. And that is what Keith and the rest of Lynkia was to me when I was at Bayer. So while I was accepting awards for every one of those campaigns and those videos, I knew the team behind behind me was making it happen. I just wore the fancy suit and got on stage. But honestly, you're only as good as your agency partners and your agency partners are only as good as you are. And everyone knows that that's been at an agency because if you have a bad client, you're going to be bad too. Because if somebody's not going to give you what you need, you can't give them what they need. So picking the right partner is so important. And that's why we at Lynkia invested the time to come up with a sort of guide for procurement. To pick the right partner. So according to Mark Pritchard is very important. So moving on to very exciting. My favorite area being that I was at Bayer for so long and those that are in regulated industries will truly understand the Herculean lift and the explaining you need to do. One day my mother asked me, what do you do at work? And I said, I explain the Internet to my grandfather. Doesn't know the difference between a story, doesn't know the difference between a reel is TikTok like a clock is snap. When you snap your fingers, it is like literally I was like, I thought I is an outer space. And that's honestly. And people are laughing because that is speaking to legal, medical and regulatory. But the sort of brightness on the other side is there is opportunity there if you bring them in as partners and you have to spend the time educating. And I'm taking this section because Keith took a hit for me a long time ago when I sent him to Arizona to our legal conference that Bayer had. And I was like, are you this weekend? So he went off and he taught me, the Bayer legal team, how to use the Internet and what social media is. And what's the difference between this kind of post? What's the difference between that kind of post and it's something that taking the time to do that helped us build a customized strategy, which I'll show you because, hey, what worked for Bayer doesn't mean it's going to work for the next pharma company either. It just doesn't mean that or for a finance company. You have to learn what your sort of push pull is and build it. And I always say crawl before you walk and run. You have to be patient. You think that like these are five year olds, you know, or you're learning to walk and just take the time and be very patient. They don't know what you know. So here's an example of what I recently did with a client is I said, okay, FTC has regulations, you have your own regulations, you're worried about lawsuits, all of the things. Now we sit down and we say, okay, let's think about those things. And what's your threshold? What's FTC's threshold? And guess what? Lynkia has a POV. Now we come up with something that's going to create more efficiencies and we have like what I call like a sandbox. Like, what are the things we can say? And we want to say, so if you're in a regulated industry on aspirin, what's the one thing I can say? And then I'm like, okay, that's the one thing I'm going to have influencers say. I'm not going to have them say anything else. This way the content can get through legal a lot faster. Running a business means juggling a lot of moving parts. And when your communication tools can't keep up, things start to slip. Missed calls, slow replies, scattered conversations. 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Is that influencer doing that? Does that work for my brand? Does it work for the content? Garbage in, garbage out. You pick the wrong influencer, they're going to create the wrong content. No one's going to be happy in the long run, you won't pick up the phone and call me again and everyone's going to be frustrated. So spend the time. Is the net net on the legal side of the business? It definitely means a lot. And the two things I feel like I learned the most from that trip was one, these are like, we think of legal regulatory as like these stiff people that just go home and like never open their phones. And I don't know what we think these people do, but they have their own thoughts and their ideas and just bringing them into the conversation, how excited they were to be like, what if we do this? What if we do that? And it was a lesson we need to get them in earlier was number one and number two is they don't understand the nuance to a certain extent and the nuance is super important. So I'll give you two examples. When a creator is doing content, there are times in the content when they are talking about product and there are times in the content where they're doing lifestyle content. We don't need a script for their lifestyle content, we need a script for their product content. I don't need to know how many eggs they put in the bowl and how they whisk in and all that stuff. And that makes the content feel too stiff. It sounds so dumb. But like, okay, now let's segment content and what we need to scrutinize versus what we don't a CGC post. So creator generated content, which is they're not posting it. We are working with creators to get the content for the brand needs to be treated differently than a sponsored post where they do post and what disclaimers we have to put on how they have to use copy in the post is different. They don't know what the hell CGC is. Like, why would they know what that means? So it just takes a little bit of education and collaboration, the upfront. But we were in the I remember early IT calls and they would have creative ideas and like, what if we do this? We're like, great idea, we'll bring that to the drawing board. But get them in, get them involved. Yeah. When Keith came back and told me he had a good time, I was like, I think he's just saying that like because he wants me to be happy. Mainly how your schedule happened to be booked that time. But yes, it was a very eye opening trip. I owe him. Great agency partner. Yeah. So we all know this as marketers that integrated marketing wins. And I started my career in PR and I learned that very fast because PR didn't at that time have a seat at the table. And I was like, how do I get a seat at the table? At the adults table? Oh, if I attach myself to the integrated work, then I'm a big girl now. All integrated work. And I would say that digital should be at the center of your integrated work. But that's a conversation for something else. But this is exactly what we did with Lanky app. Now this won a gold Cannes lion and I was able to get on that stage and accept that can lion. And thank you, Keith, for the work that you did. It was an integrated campaign, let's be clear. But at the core of it was a social insight and was a like, influencer led execution quite often, honestly. So it was a big part of it. And while advertising agency was bullying me out and trying to grab the lion, I was like, no. Nonetheless, well, I have to tell you the insight and I'll be very quick because we're running out of time. But the insight was that a long time ago the government ruled don't plant female trees because they are fruit bearing and there's tons of pollen and they were making a mess. And we're like, hey, like, that's not cool with diversity. And like, you know, we should have diversity in trees too. And Claritin is an allergy product. So you would think, like, why would they want these allergens, you know, out there in the market? We felt so strongly about our product that, hey, plant all the female trees you want. There's plenty of clarity to go around for everybody. And a huge campaign was built off of that and influencers were a big part of it. And up top was Megan Fahey. And not only when I saw that White Lotus airing an episode and all that. First thing I did was book White lotus hotel in Sicily and went on vacation. But we also got Megan Fahey as part of this. And again, Keith and team were integral to executing this. And influencers were a major part of it. And it was just really like, hey, we are pharma company doing really cool shit with cool people. And influencers were taking this content. We were launching a nasal spray, but it was a faux fragrance. And I don't know if you want to. It was like a perfume commercial spoof, basically. Yeah, it was really for nasal spray. So it was very creative. And I think at the end of the day, we live in a world where you need to now design for earned. Like we used to design for creative and for push marketing and for our messaging like you designed for earned. And there is no one in the world who understands earned better than creators who have built a following. So for an integrated strategy to not have creator being a part of an I T Strategy is insane to me. But yeah, I give a lot of credit to what Denise built in the fact that a lot of the work that was output, you saw t pain stuff. You saw 90ft, like the talent. And that became the center point of all of the creative around it versus the other way around. I have one last story. So I'm on a massage table and I were doing teach me how to gummy. And it was a dancing thing. It was a remake that Keith's team came to us with the idea and said, let's remake the song Teach me how to Dougie. And I'm a gen Xer. So I was like, amazing. We're gonna do it on this massage table. And it hits me. I'm like, we need Alfonso Ribeira Gen X. It was for 50 plus. And I'm like, this is great. He was dancing a Pepsi commercial. He was dancing on like freshman to bel Air. I literally could not get off the table fast enough to say, keith, we did Alphonso and guess what? We got Alfonso. Yeah, the insight, honestly, of had you. I didn't know that. The biggest thing with that, though, was their hesitation to do TikTok. That was the biggest hesitation. Because at the time, it was early in the TikTok saga. 50 plus wasn't considered that. And this product was only for a 50 plus audience. That was the biggest hurdle to get over. So as we close, I said, we just released the report a couple weeks ago. If you want to download the report, you can not a ton of like stuff that we didn't show up front. And like all the insights. The one thing, maybe unsurprisingly is roi still the number one challenge for influencer marketing. We always list the challenges, the hundred percent of using it everywhere but all enterprise brands. So this is large brands commenting on how much they spend, how they spend it, how they measure it, et cetera. Thank you so much for your time. We'll see you around the conference. That was a conversation recorded live at Brand Week. You can find more coverage, analysis and interviews from across the marketing and media world@adweek.com thanks for listening to AdSpeak. If you like the show, be sure to follow or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Flowing. Ad budget on metrics that look great till the CFO sees them. That's bullspend and marketers are calling it out in dashboard confessions. I remember telling my boss it'll be good for the brand when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't. Cut the bull. Spend LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title and More. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign terms and conditions apply. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.